Since I am coming in late to the discussion, I had the opportunity to read what everyone else had to say, which was nice. I noticed that a lot of the posts discussed how there really is no typical or normal American family. I agree with what Leah said about Family Ties being presenting what a fallacy the typical American Family is. I think it is good that the notion of the nuclear family as ideal continues to lose popularity, while at the same time acceptance for "non-traditional" families is increasing. This just goes to show that society is finally realizing that the nuclear family is actually the minority, while "non-traditional families" are really today's norm.

I think that Family Ties is a good show to present what a falacy the typical American family is. The Keatons are this perfect family, with parents who work, and manage to be home each night for dinner, with four kids who are all stereotyped one way or the other. Since most families aren't like this, I think people like to watch it because for half an hour they can be a part of this four star American family. That's why it is a fictional television show and not real life. In the 80s, once a week, families got to sit down and imagine that they were part of this family that loved and cared for one another, and solved all their problems in a half hour episode. I think they portray the American dream.

I found no comparison to Family Ties and The Bean Trees, even though we were not supposed to, I tried to find some sort of alikeness.
 The Bean Trees is a very interesting book so far. Compared to the books that I read in High school. From the first sentence I was hooked. I loe the name Turtle for the little girl. The story really hit close to home being based first in Kentucky. I can relate to Missy (Taylor) in the story and her need to get out of her small town, to experience life. Also to avoid the usual idea that all the girls will get pregnant and drop out of high school. IT sonds all too much like my high school sadly.

  The Bean Trees is an appropriate book for the study of the American family because it shows the reader how the differences in the ways that people are brought up shapes their individual consciousness. For example, Louann is from a "down-home" traditional southern family, and Taylor is grew up in what is often discribed as a broken home(father leaving the wife and child). Taylor, of course, is the stereotypical character of someone who grew up in a broken home. She is strong-willed, and like her mother said, "barefoot and pregnant ain't her style." She is sassy, adventurous and a hard worker who is not afraid to get a job and provide for herself and her child. LouAnn, being from the traditional southern family, was quick to settle down(although she did go to Arizona) and get married. She was a traditional stay-at-home, nurturing mother. The Bean Trees does a great job of illustrating the way a person's family up-bringing affects their personality.

    As far as Family Ties goes, it is a great example of the mid-late 80's conception of the perfect family. The parents are very much still in love, are successful, and have several interesting children, who are all successful in their own ways. In class on Thursday, the idea that the show had excessive patriachical influence came to the floor. I cannot help but disagree with the fact that Family Ties was a show that degraded women in any way. In the context of the times, this show, like the Cosby show was ahead of its time in that the mother was a successful career woman. If I remember correctly, mainstream society was never comfortable with the idea of the working, career driven mother(arguement can be made that it still is not)until the late 1990's. So in this sense, I do not believe that Family Ties was too male dominant(or enter whatever word we used in class). One can argue back that maybe I am right with Alise, but the show still has issues with patriarchy concerning Mallory(Jennifer is not a strong argument). Since Mallory is a campy, over-the-top example of a woman's stereotypical love of shopping, one can say that this is a reflection of chovinism in the show. I would offer the point that in many tv sitcoms, the childrens personalities are exaggerated for comic effect and entertainment value. Alex Keaton is portrayed as ridiculously republican person just because he is young and interested in politics. Other examples of campy character traits in sitcom children are Carlton Bank's lack of common sense and extreme dorkiness, Beaver Cleavers politeness, the list goes on. Family Ties is a campy family show that seems to project the ideal of the perfect 80's family, or at least what some people think is the perfect 80's family.

      In response to Molly Hopkins, I agree that television shows of the past have given us ideas as to what the perfect family should be, but I fail to see any current shows relaying a similar message. So many people are quick to blame or point the finger at television as either giving the populace unrealistic ideals or as corrupting the populace. I think that, honestly, it is plain to see that television does not influence the populace, but instead it is just the oppisite which is true. It is the majority of the populace which influences telelvision. I mean compare a television show of any particular era to the social values of that same era. In the Dick Van Dyke show, the characters portrayed a family that would have been an ideal one for the time. And look at television shows today, shows such as Friends and Will & Grace often come under fire from fundamentalists as corrupting our society, these shows are continuously blamed for "making homosexuality acceptable" and "corrupting our children's values" and so forth. But it is obvoius that in reality, these shows are a result of a greater tolerance for diversty and a more relaxed attitude towards issues that would have been considered obscene only a short while ago. I am tired of people on both sides of the issue, claiming that television is filling America full of false ideas and corrupting our morals. Television gave us false ideals because we wanted those ideals, and now that society has become more comfortabe with sensitive issues, such as sexuality, and our tolerance for obscene humor has expanded (take South Park for example) television has changed, in response to what we want. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this; I love the Dick Van Dyke show; I love Will & Grace; and South Park is only the funniest show in the world. I'm just saying that these programs are a result of what society dicates is realistic, not some conspiracy of telelvision producers out to get us.

Matt H, don't feel alone. I'm right there with you. My parents also have been married for over 20 years. They have four kids. We live in the country, have a big yard, a pond in back, and even a golden retriever. My dad is the superintendent at the local school and my mom is currently a middle-school teacher. When we were growing up, she stayed home with us until we were in school and went back to work. We live in a very small town. We don't have a gas station or a stop light. We only have one church. In high school, I graduated with forty-two students (that's considered a big class at my school) and not one student's parents were divorced. We live in the middle of no where and I swear we live abnormal lives. Abnormal because we are so normal. Abnormal because no one would believe that the biggest heartbreak our town has is losing a basketball game. Now, each person's definition of normal is obviously very different, I understand that, but I think we appear (and maybe that's the key word) extremely normal (which I think equals abnormal). Anyhow, I think because of maybe my somewhat "sheltered" existence, some things may be difficult for me to understand. But, let's hope not! :)
Welp, I hope everyone has a wonderful weekend, see you all in class Monday!

I am currently half-way through the novel, and I have found it very interesting so far. The way family is portrayed in this book is incredibly unique, not common at all.

One part that I found interesting is the way that they established a family in their home. Louann, Taylor, Turtle and Dwayne Ray quickly became a family. Louann took on the typical housewife role, while Taylor brought in the money, even though it was just for her and Turtle. Louann cooked, and took care of the children while Taylor was away. The thing that I found most intersting about this was the fact that Taylor didn't like this arrangement right off the bat. She didn't like the fact that Louann was taking care of everything, I think she felt as though she wasn't contributing at all. However, Louann wanted to be like this, to take care, and it shows in her motherly, nurturing character.

I think Louann has a very intersting character profile, how she is always depicted as the type who is watching out, being over protective of children. She always is thinking about what could happen, like with the chopsticks, etc. She also tells Taylor what to do with Turtle, how to care for and how to help her.

Taylor is an opposite to her in many ways. She learns the ways of caring for Turtle through Louann. Louann's nurturing character rubs off on Taylor, as she shows her that she must read to, entertain, care for and love Turtle.

Although I am not done with this novel, I find it very interesting, in how the family is portrayed. Louann, Taylor, Turtle and Dwayne have the basic fundamentals that our families have today. I am looking forward to finding out what happens next.

Oh yea, props to The Bean Trees.

Sorry I've been MIA on this message board up until now, but the whole idea of it makes me nervous. I don't know if I've had an original thought my entire life. Well concerning the "normal" family, that conversation is pointless as others have stated. That is all subjective, so we shouldn't really try to narrow anything down to an absolute.

I think it's difficult for most sitcoms to completely develope characters with more depth because they have viewers who expect certain things from the characters they have come to know and love. For that reason, it's almost impossible for families on television to live up to what we'd expect from a family. I mean, isn't that why we watch these shows? They entertain us; I don't stay up nights watching Rosanne, Family Ties, or any other sitcom feeling nastalgic about when I lived at home with my family. We watch them because they make us laugh. That's not to say we don't pick up certain perceptions concerning "a family" from watching, but I only think it's a big deal if you make it one. Which I guess I just did? OH well, sorry...

The Bean Trees was a very quick read. I really enjoyed the book and all of the characters. I read most of the other postings and don't really know how to respond to any of them. Everyone has their own opinions on every type of family but this book shows that a family doesn't have to be the typical one with a mother and father with 1.5 children. A family can be anyone that loves each other unconditionally.

In response to Tom H, your family is normal in my eyes. A normal family is a functional one. A good example of this is the show we watched in class, Family Ties. Although the show portrays a few stereotypes that we discussed in class and whatnot, the family is functional. In the day and age we live in today, functional families are becoming less. One explination of this is the increase of broken families in the United States. Factors such as divorce and alcoholism can make a family disfunctional. Despite race, religion, size, or social class, a normal family is a functional family.

  I think it's odd that we all keep entioning te "ideal" family, when such a thing doesn't even exitst... i know that in class we've said that different things work for different people... but the truth is that nothing is truely *ideal.* No matter what the situation is there will always be some kind of conflict... nothing it perfect... call me a "glass is half empty" kind of a girl, but thats just the way i see it. I mean, some people might say that my family is "ideal," because my parents have been married for almost 25 years (they're anniversary is in july) and they have been able to send both of my brothers and i to college and we all get along... but it isn't perfect. my mom had to go to work to help send us to college, but all that really did was give the government an excuse to give us less aid... my parents ARE still together, but that doesn't mean that they don't get angry with eachother... I guess my point is that things may look perfect, but they never are... Its like the mom says in "American Beauty" "To be successful one must project an image of success."

As far as "The Bean Trees" goes i haven't gotten past chapter two yet, but so far i'm enjoying it. Over the summer i read "The Poisonwood Bible" by Kingsolver and i loved it... it does an excellent job of portraying a family unit that is FAR from perfect... Ok, well... enough from me for now!

First of all, I want to say how much I am enjoying The Bean Trees. One of my good friends is a Kingsolver fan, and I'm glad I finally get to read her work. As far as the ideal of the "American Family", I don't think there should be a set criteria for that. I am in a family of just my mom and myself, and I consider us in an ideal situation. Most kids I know that live in single-parent homes have a much better relationship with his/her parent than those who live with both. I still think that shows like Family Ties are entertaining, but I would like to see more single family shows that are not completely disfunctional. One of my all time favorite shows is The Cosby Show. There wasn't much conflict, but it was never boring either. I wish we would watch and analyze an episode of Rosanne. I think that this show has been the closest thing to depicting a real family. Something I don't understand is that many people have a problem with the increasing divorce rate. Obviously, the couple wasn't happy in the marriage, so why stay in it and be miserable? If divorce was as acceptable in the 1950s perhaps so many housewives wouldn't have been addicted to drugs. I think that more people are pursuing their happiness today, and if being a single parent means a happier family life then that's how it should be.

I found it interesting in the Family Ties episode when Steven was trying to comfort Alese in the bedroom about her building being knocked down. He used some line about how she still had her family and that they would be with her no matter what. Although this was an attempt to console her, I did not see this as relevant at all. Family support is important, but it cannot fill all voids in an independent person's life. People have to feel whole as a person and be satisfied with their actions to be happy.

The American family does exist, but it is extremely rare. That is why shows such as "Family Ties" had great success because, we can not all assocaite with it so we look to the tv family for its rarity. The total and pure American family can only exist the fanatsy worls of television. Their appeal to the audience is high because we want to grow up in that perfect family, but we cant so therefor we just grow up watching them on tv.

One has to wonder why more shows like Family Ties are no longer widley succesiful. I think the reason for this is found within the fact that most families can no longer relate to this overly-ideal family setting any more. Most families are such that both parents have to work, and neither of them have as much time as they would like to spend time with the children. Consequently, the children feel overlooked or abandoned and therefore, problems develop within the household that are often overlooked until it is too late.

Also, I feel that with the high rate of divorces going on in America, the only way the American audience is going to be able to relate to any sort of sitcom based on a central family is if the mother and father are divorced or fight a lot and the children have some sort of mental anguish as a result.

The show "Fraisier" for instance, has Fraisier and his wife divorced for some time, since the begining of the show. One of the reasons for this is probably the fact that the audience can relate to this idea better than they could with a family that is totally functional.

The show "Married With Children" on the other hand, can probably attribute its success with the fact that it displayed a disfunctional family, even though the wife and husband do stay together and do show examples where they are still truely in love, even though they fight all the time.

As for my own family, we have never had any real problems. I get along with my brother very well, and my mother and father have remained happily married for over 20 years. I mean, we have had plenty of fights, we still do, but that happens in every family.

   The American Family... What does this even mean? There is no such thing. There is nothing but the ideas that we have been given through the media, through the government. We accept what we see before us in the media as truth when in fact it is nothing more than what those in positons of power tell us is right, typical. I think the very idea that the image we see before us on a screen is what our own lives, families should be like silly. We need to stop with the focus on what we think we should be like and accept the fact that the real true American family is one of diverse members and a variety of problems. In a way it seems that anymore dsyfunction is the norm.

do anyone else thing that Bingo, the guy who sold vegetables to Lou Ann, is the smartest person in the book? I think he is very smart.

My family rarely has any problems or conflicts, it is scarry actually, my sister and i get along fine, and my parents have been married for 25 years. The one thing pretty much everyone regards my family is as the perfect situation. Already in class we have encountered some basic problems within the family, and we saw first hand some of the problems in our viewing a episode of family ties. I have had a hard time relating to this because the only time i have encountered divorce or a family problem has been with my friends while growing up. This is one thing in life i am actually not familiar with and have no idea about. I am also starting to become acquainted with these problems because or our novel, where they play a big part in the character development and plot. I hope by the end of this course i will have a better idea about what the normal family is all about because now i don't have the slightest idea, is mine normal? or is it just my imagination.

I also think it is significant that almost all the family's in this book only involve 2 members. Taylor, from never having a father, has really built a unique level of independence. She remains callous to any attempt one makes to push her. This book has much to do with the portrayal of such families but I also feel that it is making a statement about the potential women have in regard to standing up for themself and clearing stereotypes. Taylor is in no way your typical woman. Again, I feel this has much to do with not having a father and having of mother with such a strong will, but it seems that Taylor doesn't even wait for a situation to come up. She attacks a potential aggressor before they have a chance to start something. Hell as a male I don't even have the power to do something like that!!! That's some balls right there! And a homosexual horse! HA! This book really provides some comic relief which has caused me to gravitate to it more than anything. I don't know if it is just because she is from Kentucky or what, but I've really been getting a kick out of some of her rules of thumb. They are all very obvious, but things that I've never considered before or had difficulty putting into words.

   One of the most important points made in class was the ideal family may have never excisted. Watching television growing up I would think the sitcom families had the greatest lives, and how easy life would be if it were more like thiers. The news paper, television news, and even my friends made me realize that sitcoms, such as Family Ties were quite unrealistic; I then began to think that disfunctional was somewhat normal as far as the family goes. Even if the ideal American family was working it, would become an issue of happieness. Sure it would look good and ideal, but would everyone be happy? In what was thought to be the perfect family, the husband would work, the wife would stay at home and clean the house and the children would do as the parents told them. One possible clue that unhappieness is evident in families is the rising divorce rate, an obvious result of unhappieness witnin a marriage or family. I believe there are no set standards for what a family should be. Every person or family has different issues and lives there life in different ways. As long as that person or family is satisfied, than the family is ideal.

With everyone discussing the comment of "a family being normal", it makes me think what everyone's definition of "normal" really is? Personally, I dont think a normal family consists of a dad that works, mom who is the house wife, a wonderful boy who plays baseball and talented daughter who is in ballet. That may have been what many families strived for YEARS AGO, but now? Shows such as Family Ties and The Cosby Show aren't shown anymore as often. Why? Because that isn't the ideal family anymore. Look at shows such as Gilmore Girls or Friends. Those are families, normal? Look around, and you will see more families consisting of a single parent with children more than you see the typical family of Family Ties. I think times have changed and defining of a normal family needs changed.

Edited by author 03-29-2002 11:34 AM
In response to Matt's comment that no family can be considered normal, I'd like to say that not only would I have to agree, but I'm not sure that I'd like to live in a world where everyone is considered a "normal" family. The reason why we are drawn to such sitcoms like Family Ties and The Cosby Show is because they are usually not achievable in our own family structures. We look to them, not always to see how our family should act, but to see how unique and special our own family units really are. I think as long as a family has love then they can survive just about anything. We read about families like Taylor and Turtle for entertainment, and yet they remind us not only of ourselves, but in many cases of people we know. Their courage gives us inspiration and looking at their family makes us appreciate our own even more.

While watching Family Ties and reading The Bean Trees, I came to the conclusion that neither can be considered a normal family and furthermore, no family can be considered normal. Every family has its distinct quirks and or strange past, which makes it unique. These oddities, in many cases, act as a bonding compound, holding the family together through a common past and or characteristic that only they know of. For example, in Family Ties, the family comes together to help their overly sentimental mother get through the demolishing of her building. Most people would find that picketing the destruction in this situation would be way too extreme, but they acted as if these situations were a commonplace occurrence to their family. Also, in the book The Bean Trees, Taylor and the other characters form a family (even though they are not blood relatives) that would be considered very unusual to most people. Taylor and Turtle are brought much closer since they share the trials and tribulations of legally becoming a family. However, even though these may not be what some people believe as the “model” family, the love between them still exists and that is truly the only normal characteristic within any given family.

I am replying to Ginger Zupancic's post. Many t.v. shows today are not centered around the "traditional" family, but there are some shows still out there that have that element to them. One great example is "The Simpsons." However zany and unrealistic the show plots may be, the show is still centered around a nuclear family. The Simpson family always sticks together no matter what, something very akin to other t.v. shows that our class has been discussing, like "Cosby," "Full House," or "Growing Pains." While it is a cartoon, "The Simpsons" still offers heart, whatever that may or may not be...

In watching Family Ties yesterday and after our discussion in class I still believe that despite what t.v. shows us no one's family is that perfect nor are their problems solved in a half hour. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with shows with happy endings but I believe that they give a false impression of what the more realistic "American" family is. When I was little and even now I watch reruns of once popular shows such as the Cosby Show, Full House, and the Growing Pains. Each of these shows portrays what the supposed ideal family in America is. But I don't believe that there is an ideal "American" family. I believe that family is what you make it.
    In the book we are reading now, Taylor's family consists of her and her mom and of course now Turtle. Lou Ann only has her son Dwayne Ray because her husband is divorcing her. And even though Lou Ann's mom and grandmother come to visit for a time they leave so they are not really that close to her. None of these families are what we would call the supposed ideal "American" family.

Family Ties seems to me to be part of a dying breed of
"family television". I do not know of many television shows today, that depict the American Family in such an idealistic but not realistic way. The Keaton's are a picturesque family that many individuals hoped to achieve to. They were loving and helpful and almost too perfect. Of course like many other shows like "Full House", "Growing Pains", and "The Cosby Show", there is a lesson to be learned in every episode. However, I do not think there is anything wrong with that because these shows as well as many others were and are very entertaining.

Well, I thought I would comment on our discussion from yesterday. What stuck me about the portrayal of family in Family Ties is how we get such an incomplete view of it. For instance, it seemed like Michael J Fox is the comic of the family and it appears like that works for them. However, he never really listened to his family, his mother in particular, and just went directly to making jokes. Had that been a real family there probably would have been a lot more reaction to him because he is actually pretty inconsiderate and if someone in my family treated me like that, I know even if I ignored it at first, that frstration would build up. I also think the Steven seems all nice and supportive at first, but he too never really took the time to just listen to his wife, he just wanted to solve her problem as quickly as he could. We talked a little about the gender roles yesterday and I thought it was a little stereotypical how in the end, even though it is perfectly obvious that Elyse's work is just about as important as her family, Steven's words about how she has made her mark on the world through her kids are suppossed to be exactly what she needed to hear. That just didn't match up to me. I think if he had been the one feeling like his work, that he puts so much energy into, was being mistreated and abused, it would be harder to convince him that his family is all he needs.

I think the way Taylor's mom treated her is having a large effect on how Taylor is acting towards Turtle as well. I can't imagine if Taylor had grown up under different circumstances and if her mother was more negative towards her that she would have even taken Turtle in. However, I think readers can see stubborn, strong women emerge in Taylor when she is faced with confrontational characters such as the man at the abandoned gas station on her way to Arizona. In this situation we saw how she can stick up for herself and defend her inviduality.

Edited by author 03-29-2002 09:37 AM
I think it is somewhat interesting that most of the families portrayed in BEAN TREES consist of only two people. First Missy and her mother, then we have other families such as Taylor and Turtle, Angel and Lou Ann, etc. Even when Lou Ann becomes pregnant, Angel leaves so there once again is only two in her family. Also there is Estevan and Esperanza and even the two old women neighbors. Lou Ann does have a larger family when her mother and grandmother come for a little while but even that has a definite separation into two pairs. This book isn't just about defining families differently by the ways the members interact, but also by family structure.

It is so interesting how Taylor's mom treated her like she is the most wonderful, smartest thing in the world and she could never do any wrong and Taylor loved it. Taylor treats Turtle the same way even though she doesn't know it, when Turtle says "bean" for the first time, Taylor says she is the smartest thing in the world. Taylor didn't think that until Turtle said the word. it's amazing what parenthood does to you.

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