To go along with the discussion in class, I am going to give my view of Sethe killing Beloved. I neither condone nor feel that the actions that Sethe took were wrong. However, I do understand how she could have done what she did. In her eyes, killing Beloved was the same as liberating her. Never would Beloved be raped, beaten, tortured, or treated like an animal. With the act of sawing her daughter’s head off, Sethe was cutting through the shackles that slavery would have placed on her daughter Beloved, no matter how horrific it may have been. While reading the book, I kept asking myself if I could have let one of my children live a life of slavery; a life of rape, torture, and subhuman conditions. It did not take me long to come up with the answer. I believe that put into Sethe’s shoes, I would have done the same thing. On the other hand, I am not in Sethe’s shoes and will never have to make a decision of that sort. For that, I am thankful and I believe that is the point that the author was trying to make.

  I completely agree with the points that Matt made. I also feel that Sethe killing Beloved (despite the manner in which is was done) was her way or saving her from a life that in my opinion cannot even be called one, except for the fact of a lack of better words. During our discussion in class I kept paralleling it to current issues of debate such as abortion. Many in the class, mostly men, were inclined to argue for the opinion that what Sethe did was wrong on the basis that her child had no say in what was happening to her. In that same sense nor did Sethe as a slave. She had no impact on what occurred to her in her life, and as I saw it this was her way of taking control again. You always here the cliché that parents want their children to have it better than they had it, as proved to be true in Sethe's case. Is it wrong to take a child out of a hopeless existence? Is it wrong to provide an escape from a life of torment and pain? In my opinion, no. Sethe was justified in her actions completely. Perhaps we cannot understand her choice, seeing as we are so far removed from the issue of slavery in our current society, and perhaps we are not meant to.

  I do not think that Toni Morrison wanted the only focus of Beloved to be the dabating of wether or not Sethe was wrong or right for killing her child. I think the killing of the child was to bring out another important issue of the book, slavery. Toni Morrison may have wanted to have an event take place in the book so the reader can have an idea of the impacts and cruelty of slavery. What could possibly be a better way to show that something was so hurtful and monsterous to a person it lead them to kill their own child?

     I agree that Beloved is about more than just whether Sethe was justified in killing her baby. However, I found the last comment of class very interesting. Someone paralleled Sethe's actions with abortion today. It is difficult to think about such a tragic act being performed in this modern day. I'm not sure if what Sethe did is the same as abortion or not. I see many important differences, such as the fact that for the most part women today are not slaves. Also, the option of adoption was not around in Sethe's day. However, at the same time the one fact that doesn't differ is that in each case the baby did not get the chance to choose whether it wanted to live or die.
     Something else that bothered me was the hypocrisy surrounding Sethe's actions. For years slave owners treated slaves as animals, beating and murdering them. But when Sethe killed her daughter everyone acted appauled by what happened. I just don't understand how the community could not care about thousands of people being tortured, but care about one child, who would end up like those thousands anyway.

I think the structure of Beloved is interesting because of the fact that it too stresses an important topic: the amount of time that Sethe was remotely happy. Sethe had 28 days of freedom before the Whites came back to get her. This is the same amount of chapters in the book. Morrison is showing that 28 days is such a small amount of time. It took us only a week to read those 28 chapters. Imagine how quickly those 28 days went by for Sethe. Also the book is divided into three sections, one symbolizing each of the three women. Each section starts off by describing the current mood of 124. Perhaps this is also supposed to parallel the moods of the three women.

I think that the runaway of Sethe's two boys, Buglar and Howard, should have been developed more throughout the book; I wanted to know more specifically what happened to them after they fled. I saw their runaway as being indicative of the slaves' state of futility in general. To the brothers, any sort of authority had become hostile and dangerous. The same cruel spirit which drove the slave owners to beat their parents had now inhabited their mother. Seeing that their parents were helpless to take a stand against their "masters" what hope did Buglar and Howard have against protecting themselves and Denver from their own mother???...Sethe fled from confrontation when she was faced with giving up her children to the schoolteacher. She knew that to resist him would be hopeless. The boys fled from Sethe for the same reason, she was authority and they could not feel protected from her.

Man, I don't want to say anything about Sethe killing Beloved for fear of pissing everyone off, but there doesn't seem to be much else worth discussing. That being said, I think everyone has some really great opinions on this. Someone said something about being born into a hopeless situation. My opinion is that I'd rather have that chance, no matter how slim it is, than not at all. I guess there's more to say, but I don't want an english class lynch mob coming after me or something, so I'm done. And contrary to popular belief, I, Greg Booth, have never been and will never be a slave.

Let me just start off by saying there's no way I'm getting near the abortion issue. I knew that would be brought up, and where I can see why it would be brought up, I don't think it has much to do with the actual context of the book. That being said, I think the overall debate over whether or not what Sethe can fall under our judgement is a good one, but what I think is much more important than that is the way Toni Morrison has portrayed slavery. I mean every knows that savery was pretty bad, an altogether horrible thing. But "Beloved" gives us an idea of just how bad it really was. Whether what Sethe did was right or wrong isn't as important as the fact that she actually did it. That says alot more about slavery than anything I've ever read before.

I think that the importance of Sethe's murder of crawling already? lies within the fact that she felt she had to make the choice. I don't think that Toni Morrison put that part in the book to debate whether she was right or not to commit the murder. However, I feel that that part was put in to show the extremities that Sethe faced, with putting her child into slavery or killing her. Obviously, slavery was so horrible for her, as she recalls throughout the book, that she feels it is necessary to not let her child go through it. I don't think this is a right or wrong issue here, but I can see how it could be viewed as that. But, I see this as an effect of slavery, what extremeties Sethe must go through as a result of her horrible, terrifying experience. As someone put earlier, you want yoru children to live a better life than you, and this is another evident reason that Sethe did what she did. If her children could not live a better life, away from the life of slavery she went through, then why live at all.

I don't think that any one of us has any right to say whether or not Sethe made the right or wrong decision on killing Beloved. Not a single one of us has ever gone through even half of what Sethe went through, therefore we know nothing about how horrible slavery is. True, I believe that Beloved deserved a chance, but what if there was something that only Sethe knew would happen that would ruin Beloved's life? I think that in times like today, it's not right to pass judgement on someone, when we are so in the dark of the circumstances.

i think they way the book way written was awsome. i think that, unlike The Been Trees, which i liked a lot, Toni Morrison didnt really leave us with any holes; or at least any non-intentional holes. i think she left us with some major things to think about, obviously, but she didnt develope anyone or any theme and just stop. i think the umportance of Paul D was huge. we didnt really talk about him, but he was in an even worse situation than Sethe, especially in Georgia! and his escape was even longer and just as hard. i wonder if people just skip over that because he was a man, and "should be able to take care of himself."?

I agree with what a lot of people say about Sethe killing her baby and how it was wrong but how she did it for the reson to save her daughter from the suffering she would have endured if she had become a slave. I agree with what someone said about the hypocracy surrounding her actions, and how slave owners beat, raped, and killed their slaves constantly, and that when Sethe killed her child for the sake of preventing that from happening, the community was outraged. I also agree with what someone said that the baby never had a chance to chose for herself whether or not she wanted to live or die, and that Sethe did, and that was not fair. There are so many different viewpoints on this topic and so many people feel so strongly about this issue, that it is hard for me to really decide how I feel about it. I think because this is being looked at as a moral issue that it will forever be argued but I really enjoyed hearing everyone's oppinions on it yesterday.

Edited by author 04-12-2002 01:16 PM
I agree with what Matt Dunson wrote about how if he were put in Sethe's shoes, he would have done the same. But he wasn't and never will be and that is the point that Morrison was trying to make. No one except the people who were apart of slavery will ever understand how that felt and what extreme measures are taken during a time like that. I too, like Matt, would have done the same thing as Sethe, and take Beloved's life. But I am not and never will be in those shoes and I could never possibly understand what the slaves ever went through. Toni Morrison wrote this book in such a way to try and get the point accross that slavery is the most horrifying and brutal life to live and she used Sethe's murder of Beloved as an example of how terrible it actually got.
   I did not enjoy the way Morrison wrote and I wish she were more clear but in my mind it is a piece of art that will be cherished for the artwork within. Since I am a photo-illustration major I have been in several upon several art classes and various photo classes and when I view this book, I see it as art. That's the difference between The Bean Trees and this novel. The Bean Trees was a writing that was easy to understand and a really quick read. I would say that The Bean Trees wasn't a challenge but used a language that was really descriptive but still, easy. Beloved was complicated but a nice piece of work that communicated a powerful image of slavery.
  I could talk on and on about this book including the topics of what happend to her sons and how this compares to abortion but I won't go there today.

i know i already posted a message, but this one isnt really about the book. somone said that they werent going near the "abortion issue". i am willing to bring it up because whether people in the class think i am right or wrong doesnt matter, because i really think i am right. abortion is WRONG. even if you dont think it is murder, which it is because you are killing a baby knowingly, it is the most selfish act a women can do. people say "its my body or its a women's body and she can do what she wants" their are two things im going to say about that. first, its not their body, by having sex with a guy they are sharing that body God gave them with that guy they are having or had sex with. they are also definitly sharing that body with a baby, since they are pregnant. that is why abortion is soooo selfish, they are taking that body away from the baby, with whom the woman is sharing it. not only is she taking that body away from the child, but the child's life away. the second thing i am going to say about that argument ("its my body i can do what i want") is: is it not illegal to inject/snort/smoke/drop/roll (whatever else) illegal drugs into that body? if the argument "its my body i can do what i want" is a valid one, drugs would not be illegal to use. another argument people use is (sort of) "the place or situation i live in is not sutable for a child" well get out of that situation!!! if you are unable, put the baby up for adoption. but, about adoption, women say "i dont want to have to carry a child for nine months and then see it taken away" this, again is selfish. the argument they just made "the situation in which i live is not sutable for a child" was actually not selfish. it was taking the childs life into consideration. this last argument did not. I dont want to carry the baby I will get hurt. who cares about you. if the child is aborted you dont die. the thing you may have is regret, but at least you have an opportunity to alter or vendicate that choice and those feelings!!!! the most selfish reason many women go through with an abortion because of is, they dont want to have to change their lives: their parents will disown them, they ll have to drop out of school, the guy who got them pregnantleft (which is not even a man, in terms of a good man, if he did), or any such number of reasons. can anyone not see the selfishness in that!?!!!??? "i dont want to have to change my life, so ill kill a baby!!!" how is that even an option??? it is very sad that abortion has somhow been called "the better choice" because the baby wont be happy. who is anyone to decide that. babies just need to survive. when they become remotely self-sufficient, they will start to learn things, but until then, their main goal is to survive. they wont have other advantages that come with a happy childhood or happy new-bornhood, but at least they will be able to make the choice themselves one day, how they will live their lives. i dont think, as in most issues, that their are exceptions. rape and insest are a GRAY-AREA, not automatic abortions. serious thought has to be put in those situations, because it is still murder. but if you disagree with me, quetion me. dont get angry and be mad and say i hate that kid, just ask questions. ill be happy to answer back, or acceptt the criticism.

Since everyone has been talking about how Sethe killed Beloved, I might as well throw in my two cents.

I hear a lot of people comparing what Sethe did to abortion, but I think what Sethe did took a lot more guts. If you made every mother who ever wanted an abortion saw off the head of her child, you would have a lot less abortions in the world. It is clear in my mind that Sethe thought that what she was doing was absolutly necessary.

However, I do not agree with her. Sethe is making a critical decision about a life that is not hers. Obviously, I will never be placed in the same situation, but I just don't think I can ever condone what she did (not that it really matters whether I condone it or not). The bloody murder of her daughter, who never had the chance to decide for herself whether or not death was better than slavery, is inexcusible.

Another question that we must ask ourselves is "If Sethe felt so strongly about slavery that she considered herself to be saving her daughter by killing her, why didn't she ever killed herself before then?" Sethe had been a slave most of her life, yet never once did she attempt to commit suicide. How can she justify that death is better than slavery if she herself was willing to live the life of a slave as opposed to killing herself? I suppose if the character Sethe exsisted, she would probably bite my head off for asking a question such as this, but it is something that needs to be asked.

To Scott Bower: I find your opinions on abortion very interesting. I remember having a neutral opinion on abortion for a long time (this is due to the fact that males will never have the same aspect on abortion as females in generally) until I saw this one movie. I forget the title but one of the female characters was a drug addict and had just found out that she was pregnant. It was later revealed in the movie that she had had an abortion a few days ago. I remember the first thing I thought when I heard that was "She just killed that baby!" Since then, I have had the strict opinion that abortion is pretty much the same thing as murder, we have just given it a very technical term, and made it clean.

As I said above, if every abortion required that the mother or parent take a saw and cut off the baby's head, we would have a lot less abortions in this country.

However Scott, you have to remember, you will never be faced with that position in your life. Although I do not approve of abortion, you have to remember that you will never have a baby living inside of you (notice I specifically said "living") and you will never be faced with that situation in your life.