in other words, the sky is the limit.
there are no boundaries for things with wings..
whether physical or spiritual if you are free to fly you are free and no effort on the part of another can stop you..
even shot down, there is the Healer.
He comes to restore to us what every soul lost in "the fall"
"FLIGHT"

Karen,

   While I can sympathize with the beknighted souls hanging on in dead mainline denominations, actually believing that they are supplying some sort of witness I fail to see the same in those who you say are doing so in the Roman Catholic system.

   Those claiming to be conservatives in the mainlines have some credibility to their claim since these denominations were fairly orthodox until about 100 years ago. Some can even remember when there were more orthodox members than there are today.

   On the other hand, the Roman Catholic system hasn't been orthodox for almost 1500 years. Unless one thinks that their unbiblical traditions represent the gospel revealed through the scriptures. That then would be witnessing to what? Heresy?

   If any of these people think they can affect change in a system that denies it can ever be in error then they have been hynotized by the smells and bells.

   Those whop come to a knowledge of the truth leave to seek the company of those who also have that knowledge.

Bob

Years ago I was privileged to spend a week with a brother from Bulgaria, Pastor Harlan Popov. He had been in a communist prison for thirteen years before finally being ransomed by the Swedish government who paid for his release when Harlan's Swedish born wife had herself been freed from the same strong hold of a communist dictatorship. She never gave up on getting her husband out of that prison, even though she wasn't sure if he was even alive for some of the years she'd persevered in faith believing God to save him.
 Harlan talked to me constantly while I was driving him around to meetings, church gatherings, newspaper interviews, etc. mostly about the lessons he'd learned while in prison.
You can believe it was a humbling, chastening experience for a man who'd been at one time the "head" of the whole Baptist Church in Bulgaria.
One of those lessons learned for Harlan had to do with who his real brethren in Christ actually were compared to who he'd believed they were.
Many within his own denomination ended up betraying not only him but members of their own families to save themselves from the kind of torture and merciless treatment Harlan had received at the hands of men more wicked than most of us can begin to even imagine (other than what we see on our tv sets happening to "other people")
Harlan said that in Bulgaria Baptists never associated with Catholics..
or any other "orthodox" denomination..
they just kept pretty much to themselves and their own kind.
just like everyone else ...all of them beliving themselves to be the "real" church while the others were the "heretics" ..if you know what I mean, kind of like Calvinists and Methodists, right?
or Lutherans and whoever..
the real moral of the story though had to do with what happened in that prison cell.
Harlan watched as Roman Catholic priests and brothers he'd never known or had a thing to do with in his life suffered the same kind of beatings and torture for the same CHRIST and their living FAITH in HIM as he, Harlan was enduring. When he was hungry, it was a Catholic priest who broke his own small piece of bread to share it with Harlan..and when he was cold it was the same priest who shared with him a blanket while choosing to himself go without.
What Harlan told me is that his entire perspective changed as he sat there in a prison cell and worked alongside of his Catholic brothers who were forced to labor as punishment for their "sins" against the Communist government that had overtaken them.
The walls of separation came down and they looked at each other through the eyes of Christ Himself..
loving one another as He loves us all.
As Harlan said, "all of a sudden doctrines of men didn't mean much and especially denominations were of little to no importance"
He told me it's persecution that the Lord uses to divide His sheep from the goats wherever the Lord's "flock" might be found.
So, I think we might agree, Bob, it is the Lord Who will Himself do the dividing..our responsibility is only to be found faithful to HIM wherever it is we might be found otherwise.
We are to recognize JESUS in the LEAST of HIS BRETHREN..
He has shown us what is "good"
as someone said to me just yesterday..
"the enemy of GOOD is BETTER."

Bob..
are you saying that the pope is wrong and there is no error in the Protestant Churches who have exiled the Roman Church?
I remember reading something sent to me from a member of John Michael's Little Portion community..
it was a copy of several pages from Vatican II that I believe Pope John had led the Church to be part of in way of their own "reformation"
process..
I read very clearly statements from the Pope and other bishops who'd gathered that they were convicted for the many SINS committed by former popes and leaders within the Church against their "Protestant brothers" and I read that they were to no longer consider their "protestant brethren" as being in rebellion..that Catholics were to embrace all who name the Name of Christ in Truth as believers of the SAME JESUS Who laid down His Life for all sinners, including themselves, and offered forgiveness for sin through His Blood that was shed for all who believe. Not only "Roman Catholics" or those baptized in the "Roman Catholic" church.
There is a whole lot more to this so I just recommend you find a copy of it and read it for yourself. God forbid I'd mislead or misquote here something since it's been years and my memory will fail me I'm sure as to word for word what is written.
What I do know is that from the time of Vatican II Catholics and Protestants were starting to worship together and finding common ground through genuine faith in Christ, reading the scriptures together and seeking the Lord in spirit and in truth.
I knew many of them and still do know many who don't offer prayers up to saints or embrace the erroneous teaching of a majority of others who believe it's "good" to do so or "better" than praying to the Lord Himself.

That isn't to say it's "ok" or in any way "good" for any man in any denomination to believe he is without error whether he be a pope or a minister or an evangelist..
whatever the case, Bob, what I am pointing out here is that John Michael Talbot believes the Lord led him back into the church he'd been a member of from the time he was a child. He is a witness to others within that church and definitely has been a LIGHT to the lost who wander around in darkness (whether in or outside of the church)
I don't agree with much of what is taught by many Roman Catholic priests and the church at large when it comes to "extra biblical" teachings..
at the same time I do recognize true brothers and sisters who have chosen to remain within that denomination in the same way I know there are true brothers and sisters in every other.
Jesus said that "whosoever believes in Me will in no wise be cast out"
and that whoever comes to Him as a little child, believing humbly from our hearts that He is the Savior of the World, the Lamb of God slain for us sinners..if we repent from going in our own wrong ways we will be saved.
You are right that many in the Roman Catholic church have gone in wrong ways and led others into the same. I don't deny that..
I have seen just as many within the Protestant Churches who are doing the same and just as stubbornly refusing to let go of their own wrong teaching as members and leaders of the Catholic Church have..
for what it's worth, anyway, that's how I "see" this..
Harlan Popov is to me about the greatest of all living saints I've personally encountered in my life ..tested, proven, refined by fire.
I think when it comes to buying "gold" (the kind the Lord admonishes the Laodoceans to get hold of) his was anything but "fool's gold"

Karen,

    It would be nice if you would actually respond in a single letter instead of the continual stream of conscienceness blog you are notorious for.

    I get the impression that you are ignorant as to the Romanist doctrine of Papal Infallibility promulgated by Vatican I in 1870. The doctrine doesn't say the popes are infallible persons. It says that when they teach ex cathera (the Chair Of Peter) they are infallible in their teaching. Again reminding you from my last, this means that the Roman system is never wrong, thus nothing changes.

    If you really want to see the liberality of the Roman system try taking communion after telling the priest that you do not believe in a literal body and blood in the elements. I'll bet you don't get to take it.
 When I was in the PCUSA the then pastor told us of his having assisted the priest serve communion in a Romanist Mass. Only once! As soon as the bishop heard about it he reprimanded the priest and took away his priviledge to conduct Mass. So much for that christian fellowship. For a further look at the subject I refer you to Iesus Dominus 2000, written by Cardinal Ratzinger as head of The Office For the Propagation Of The Faith (Inquisition) for some enlightenment of how equal we rebels are.

    WE exiled the Roman church? Well, and here am I having learned that it was Protestants were the ones excommunicated.

    Protestants and Romanists can never study the scriptures together since true Protetstants say the bioble is the reula fide and Rome says it's traditions trump it. Protestants have the right to interpret scripture freely, a Catholic can only do so according to the Catechism.

    Finally, a tip on rhetoric. Using another group to excuse the behavior of another group doesn't work. The subject under discussion is why someone would join the Romanist communion though he disagree with it's primary dogmatic statements. Protestantsism is not under discussion.

    I don't care what Colson and Packer think, there is no way for Romanists and Protestants to worship together as long as Romanism holds to it unbiblical doctrines.

   Please try to compose your thoughts into one missive? I can't imagine you blogging as you do if you had to pay for all the postage.

   I am quite sure the others would agree.

Bob

Sorry, bad typing as usual.



  Its regula fide meaning rule of faith in paragraph five.

Bob

The link:


    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congrega...minus-iesus_en.html

well, Bob, I can only speak again from memory but I do believe "Vatican II" was an apology for the errors and mistakes and SINS committed by popes, priests and bishops throughout ages past.
In America, we now "celebrate diversity" to an extent that most unfortunately is the kind of extreme folks end up going to in an effort to "right a wrong."
At no time have I excused the sins of the Roman Church and/or false leaders who'd exploited not only the poorest of the poor but Jesus Christ Himself. Any more than I'd excuse the sins and erroneous teachings of Calvin and Luther or any other who claim Jesus' Name in this world and believe themselves "final authority" when it comes to authoritative interpretation of scripture.
What I tried to bring to Light here is merely what David and many others who've chosen to remain within the PCUSA are themselves convinced of when it comes to remaining faithful to GOD OF THE WORD as they believe the WORD OF GOD is the only TRUTH to be held onto and believed in this present world no matter "who is in charge" otherwise.
It may be your blatent attack on the Catholic Church is what I myself most needed to consider as we are praying for our beloved brethren who have chosen to remain in the PCUSA.
I do not consider any who left as being divisive or having betrayed the Lord or in any way been guilty of violating the most basic of the church's confessions.
As far as receiving communion in the Catholic Church, again I must tell you my personal experience with a brotherhood (including sisters) of Franciscans was the exact opposite. As far as I know they are still included in the fellowship of "saints" and have not been kicked out of the Church. If they'd been threatened by a bishop or anyone else at the time those faithful believers would have chosen their conviction that LOVE is greater than "doctrines of men" and would have remained faithful to their Protestant "brethren" rather than to have submitted to human authority.
There is a difference here that I see..
The reason for my breaking up a single long letter as I am posting to make several shorter ones is that it takes time for me to thoroughly read what you are saying and respond accordingly, a little at a time.
It could be a few hours before I finally get back to this one..so please forgive me if I stop and submit then return later to finish.
I have two little grandchildren who demand constant attention and rather than take the chance of losing everything I've spent this much time on I will press submit, which I am going to do right now to see what that huge noise was downstairs..
later.

as I was saying..
little people take big sacrifices on the part of grandparents who choose to exchange our greater interests for Barney and friends..
baby lost interest and decided overturning a toybox was a whole lot more fun than sitting quietly next to her older brother watching the "other" kids who were "having fun" even if only "make believe"
She is now playing the hammered dulcimer and singing along "twinkle twinkle little star" (in perfect key, no less)
this is one singing child. She never stops singing.
even while she's picking herself up and brushing herself off after a hard fall I hear her break into song.
God has sent us a little angel. I'm learning to see everything again through the eyes of a little child..
definitely, I must say, Jesus really did know what it is HE was talking about when HE said, "unless you become as one of these little ones you will NEVER SEE the KINGDOM OF GOD"
from there, Bob..I simply feel it would be futile of me to repeat what I've already said a thousand times over..
if you think that I would advocate for such false teaching within the Roman Catholic Church any more than I do within a "Calvinist" Church then definitely we have never at all been "on the same page"
as far as studying scripture though with Roman Catholic friends?
just last night two people I consider the most faithful and genuine believers I've known in this world graced us with their presence.
They are still in the Catholic Church..
we had some of the sweetest fellowship with them and I realized how they
maintain one of the most precious if not THE most precious of ALL GIFTS given to us by GOD..
not only such PURE FAITH but also PERFECT LOVE.
against such there is NO LAW..
Jesus' words, not mine

one last note..
I'm thinking about our friend JMT.
about what he shared with me personally concerning his reason for having returned to the faith of "his fathers" by ending up in a monastary when otherwise it's most likely he'd have turned back to the world from whence he'd come otherwise..
drugs, rock music, sexual pleasure, fame and fortune WITHOUT JESUS..
anyway, suffice it to say that as I watch from my little boat out here navigating the sea of life.
Whether I find myself alone in a tiny liferaft after having escaped the "crash" or in a seaworthy vessel alongside of a few nearest friends learning how to "sail" (simply to survive? for simplest pleasure?)
what matters most will always come down to an anchor that's strong enough
to hold us through a storm, keep us docked while we are restocking for our next journey..
anyway, you know Bob? I'm not interested in this kind of argument.
maybe what Colson and Packard have learned that you just aren't able to get quite yet is that there is a CHURCH INVISIBLE and IMMORTAL ..
they can be still found anywhere and everywhere, in spite of all the evil forces that have tried to overtake HER from within and outside ..
the GATES OF HELL cannot and WILL NOT prevail against the TRUE CHURCH.
Wherever that CHURCH remains FAITHFUL she is called TRUE by JESUS HIMSELF
that is what will matter most. always in the end, a final judgement is not coming down to "they will know we are Christians by our traditions and our doctrines"
but rather..
they will KNOW WE ARE CHRISTIANS BY OUR LOVE.
I'm very sorry you missed my main message (moral?) when it came to the story I shared with you from a true saint in our own time who had REAL GOLD to sell us.
Too bad so many have been "fooled" by the fake stuff they weren't willing to take the time to listen ..to taste and see for themselves ..
to "know" there is a "difference."

and, sorry, but this has come to mind and I must mention it for the sake of anyone who is able to think about things long enough and hard enough to get hold of TRUTH ..
The Roman Catholic Church was the ONLY CHURCH we know of that existed (though I am sure there were others throughout the world who'd never heard of the pope or Rome and even if they had would not have wanted to be part of such a "worldly church" as it had become)
the scriptures were presevered, translated, passed down through ages by faithful monks who labored to make sure every word, every jot, every tittle was perfectly in place ...
have you ever watched the MISSION?
with Jeremy Irons and Robert DeNiro..
honestly I think from my heart I can say it will be my favorite movie of ALL TIME and I do hope you will take time to watch if you haven't already.
there are so many issues of our own time that come up within the three hours it will take anyone to simply watch, pray and hopefully learn from mistakes that had been made by past "rulers" in this present world.
especially "rulers" within the Church of Jesus Christ.
For me..the MISSION says it all as far as what from my own heart I most want to say to any of you.
I remember the very last scene where a repentant slave trader, a man who'd murdered his own brother over a woman who'd betrayed his trust..
a man who'd been found sitting in a dark prison cell wanting only to die because all he'd loved in this world had been taken away, even by his own hands in an act of impulsive rage that motivated him to KILL his OWN BROTHER..
an incredible movie..
and how he himself believed he must so such penance as to have dragged a huge burden up a mountain to the place where he'd eventually give his own life in an effort to protect and free men he'd once enslaved only to get gain for himself.
The story is in and of itself a proverbial "GOOD vs. EVIL" in the truest sense of the word.
for you, Bob, I hope it would bring to LIFE something you seem not to be able to get hold of that is so, so important for us all.
We just can't "judge" by outward appearances.
LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE the GOSPEL IN ONE WORD IS LOVE
"They will KNOW we are CHRISTIANS by our LOVE"

This ISSUE is so much BIGGER than whatever it is you are fighting otherwise, Bob..
sorry if you disagree..
I must say the Catholics are holding their ground in a way most protestants are falling short of comparatively speaking.
It's not my war.
I am only a soldier doing my best to hold down the fort until HE COMES
to free us all.

Obama declares June 'LGBT Pride Month'
Jody Brown and Allie Martin - OneNewsNow - 6/2/2009 7:20:00 AM

In a presidential proclamation on the White House website, Barack Obama has lauded what he calls "the determination and dedication" of the LGBT movement by proclaiming June as "Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Pride Month."


 


"The LGBT rights movement has achieved great progress," Obama states in the official proclamation, "but there is more to be done. LGBT youth should feel safe to learn without the fear of harassment, and LGBT families and seniors should be allowed to live their lives with dignity and respect."
 
The proclamation, released on Monday, credits the LGBT movement with being a factor in more Americans who ascribe to those groups "living their lives openly today than ever before."

 

Story continues below ...



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What's your reaction to Barack Obama's proclamation designating

this month as 'LGBT Pride Month'? Vote in our poll



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The president also takes pride in being the first U.S. chief executive to appoint "openly LGBT" candidates to Senate-confirmed positions in the first 100 days of an administration.
 
He uses the proclamation to emphasize LGBT-related initiatives that he intends to pursue in the future -- both domestically and internationally.
 
"I have joined efforts at the United Nations to decriminalize homosexual around the world," he states. "Here at home, I continue to support measures to bring the full spectrum of equal rights to LGBT Americans."
 
Among those measures he lists "hate crimes" laws, civil unions, discrimination in the workplace, adoption rights, and ending the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy "in a way that strengthens our Armed Forces and our national security."

 

Presidential pandering

Pro-family activist says Peter LaBarbera it is sad, but not surprising, that President Obama has chosen to issue a proclamation celebrating homosexuality. The president of Americans for Truth About Homosexuality says Obama is pandering to homosexual political activists.
 
"Homosexuality is nothing to be proud of -- bottom line," says LaBarbera. "The fact is people have left the lifestyle, people have overcome homosexuality [with God's help] -- I think that's something to be proud of...."
 
LaBarbera warns of the repercussions of the president's pursuit of expanded rights for those who are confused about their sexual orientation.
 
"This proclamation talks about the entire radical homosexual agenda that Obama supports -- including homosexualizing the U.S. military [and] federal so-called 'rights' based on homosexuality, which will impinge on the religious freedoms and freedom of conscience of other Americans."

 

Christians, he believes, must reach out to homosexuals with the message of the gospel.

Without a doubt this last post will have Gene E. jumping with GLEE!!
so what does this say to YOU and ME?
what does it mean to REJOICE with the RIGHTEOUS?
to mourn with those who mourn?
when EVIL TRIUMPHS? who do we fine REJOICING?
who do we find grieving? mourning?
maybe this is a clue for us all as to who we are and where we are
positioned on this ongoing cycle? circle? TIME as we know it?..
marantha, ya'll!

Edited by author 06-02-2009 08:07 PM
:) well, a big smile...albeit, a gleeful one. No jumping though...I will wait for hate crimes, non discrimination law, DADT overturned, before I jump in glee.

As it happens Karen, the worlds largest employer of Gay men is so full of those working for us (often quietly behind the scene), it actually does not hurt the cause to much, all things considered...certainly you have wondered WHY a denomination of that size, wealth and scope seems so powerless (or at the least seriously weakened) in states it overwhemlingly dominates, such as Mass, Vt. Conn, and California? Lets face it... 52% to 48%...15 years ago, if you had said that all the money and power of the Catholics (and Mormons) combined could only gather a 2% plus one vote majority in a overwhemlingly Roman Catholic state on the issue of excluding marriage rights for Gay couples, who would have believed it? Not Me!

The Greek Orthodox, the Armenian and Georgian Orthodox (who were the first nations on earth to make Christianity the official state religion) and the Copts would VIGOROUSLY disagree about the Roman Catholics being first, and they would be correct from a historical perspective.

On a closing note, all the discussion of Catholics is...well...how did you get here again? A reference to a singer, I think? Keep at it if you wish, but, whats the point really? Bob is right on theology, and (this causes actual phycical discomfort) Karen is right that there are many good Catholics who do much good, and as Christians we are called to show humility and grace...let them see reformed theology, and if they haven't the sense to see the superiority of it, thats their loss, and between them and God. I have to much to do taking care of my own life and the matters of my own denomination to deal with that one (which is a collection of a billion plus, their foibles, and weirdness...and I know first hand...trust me...I know, there is a LOT of weirdness and neurosis, mixed with a lot of 'tradition' and liturgical performance art)

PS Karen, THANKS for quoting "and they will know we are Christian by our love"...its been a long day, I needed a good chuckle, and while otherwise the hymn is not funny at all but beautiful, but coming from YOU! Oh, whats it called when ones side hurts from laughing to long? Well, anyway, thanks. I needed that.

Chastening is an act of God's faithful LOVE towards His Own children. Even Jesus learned obedience through suffering.
God's LAW is LOVE.
When we love the Lord in Truth, we keep His commandments.
We fulfill the Law through faith, not out of a sense of duty or because we are afraid of being punished.
Still, the FEAR of GOD is the beginning of WISDOM in the same sense perfect love casts out all fear.
A child knows when he is loved so that he fears the pain (or discomfort) discipline brings when he disobeys.
He also understands that it's love motivating any parent who cares enough to "stop" him from destroying himself or his siblings because he's giving into something within himself he has no ability to control without someone bigger than himself, wiser than himself, greater than himself.
Of course, children are most naturally narcisistic.
"foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, the rod of correction drives it away"
Obedience is learned through suffering. The Lord rebukes and chastens everyone he loves.