For the record, many of our Catholic friends never pray to saints, do not believe Mary is "Queen of Heaven" ..don't pray to Mary, don't believe popes are infalible (or any other man) and don't believe a person is going to be in Heaven simply because he'd been baptized as an infant.
Why do they remain within the Catholic Church? I think they do for the same reason our pastors gave us concerning their decision to stay in the PCUSA when they know so much heresy, false teaching and doctrinal error is being taught by others who claim themselves to be "authority" here on earth ..
They say they stay to be a witness, a Light in what has obviously become a very dark place for many..
hopefully they will end up with greater influence than whoever is there to mislead or confuse otherwise..
I can't really know for certain right now whether or not the choices made by other people who love God and claim they are true servants are right ones other than to see the fruit of a man's life..
Jesus taught His disciples that we can only know by the fruit of a person's life whether or not they've been really saved or not..obviously words are cheap and lipservice amounts to nothing at all in the end.
Anyone can parrot what we've been taught in way of creeds or confessions but in truth those who worship the Lord ..in Spirit and in Truth are not confined to any one place or another...not anything built with men's hands whether a cathedral or a prison cell.. no nation (or denomination) can establish boundaries to keep out real believers any more than it can birds.

oops..the word is "perverted" and yes, indeed, there has been a whole lot of perversion when it comes to the meaning of words authored by our Lord Himself. Shame on us who choose to believe men rather than God.

I do realize what is taught by such a system of humans who have obviously distorted and peverted teachings of Christ and the apostles, Bob.
Sorry if I didn't make that clear..of course I know what is taught by many who are "authorities" within the system but at the same time there have always been a remnant who found the Truth of the same gospel we ourselves have come to believe..
in spite of the error, the confusion, the lies, false teaching, whatever had overtaken even a majority.
It's difficult to know at times what should be done when we are faced with such a big mess that was made before we arrived on the scene no matter where it is we end up in this world (or into what denomination we might have been baptized as babies)
Obviously we do have choices as to where it is we stay or go and what our role might be in any given situation.
To the best of our ability we can only try to from our hearts listen to the Voice of the Lord speaking to us and guiding us day by day as we surrender our human will to the Holy Spirit and pray as Jesus had, "not my will but Thine be done"
I think that is where the "cross" comes in..
where my will meets my Maker's and I decide whether to follow my own way or His, forge my own path or walk in the Course already proven by Him to be the Right Way back to our Father in Heaven.
For me right now I can only do my best to listen and learn at the Feet of the Same Master Mary sat to find peace with the Same Living Lord.
Then follow as He leads.
Wherever He leads, however is not my choice but His.
As long as I am close to Jesus there is peace, that I for sure have learned if nothing else in this world. Outside of Him there is nothing but confusion and unrest and it seems the more solutions men come up with the worse it gets for not only the world but especially for the Church.

Karen,

    If you had only taken the time to read what I'd written you'd have seen that I said nothing of Roman Catholics. My statement was directed to the beliefs of the Roman Catholic system which requires numerous unbiblical "traditions" to be held by it's adherents. No one can be saved without a belief in the infallibility of the popes, Mary's assumption to heaven and glorified, Purgatory, etc.

    This same system requires that no meat be eaten during during the unbiblical Lenten season, that baptism cleanses from original sin and to be saved one has to have the righteousness of Christ infused into him, not to mention that no Roman Catholic can rest on the asurance of salvation until he wakes up in Purgatory where he will be punished for the sins Christ has already paid for. Strange that they tell people they have no assurance yet Rome can tell you who is in heaven and who will be saved without faith in Christ.

    If as you say your friend doesn't believe in all that the Roman system teaches he's going to be as good a Roman Catholic as he was the Protestant he claimed to be.

Bob

the last post reminded me of my grandfather.
how he whistled..all the time he was whistling and how as a little girl I'd hear him whistling on his way down the street to his home from his shop.
It was comforting for me as a little girl to hear him and to know he was there. A grandpa who loved me, cared for me, was there to protect and guide and comfort and heal whenever I was hurting in any way.
I know without a doubt that is WHO JESUS IS.
COMFORTER
COUNSELLOR
ALMIGHTY GOD
EVERLASTING FATHER
PRINCE OF PEACE
Marantha, ya'll!
to you who doubt, I'd only ask you might consider..
HOW should the LAST church be living compared to the first?
what IF the hour we are now in IS the very last hour?
or, what if we are actually in the last moment of that last hour?
how THEN shall we LIVE?

honestly, Bob..
all Roman Catholics aren't "bad" any more than all Charismatics or all Prestyrians or all Methodists or all Baptists..you know?
there are some for real in every denomination..a remnant.
Just as there are with Jews.
With any group a "remnant" of genuine faithful believers who might be misled by false teachers and doctrines of "demons" that crept in while
whoever it was who'd been sleeping or shot down as a watchman (or watch dog) failed to stop them.
whatever the case, I am now more confident than ever before that the LORD HIMSELF is going to RISE UP to ROAR over the whole earth.
In that moment?
we will be singing from our hearts..
rejoicing with Him who is rejoicing over us with singing.
That's what a Good Shepherd does, Bob..
He sings. all the time he's singing.
The sheep hear his voice and follow along feeling so safe in the care of
the One who has proven Himself always as faithful in love to us as Jesus has to every faithful believer from age to age.
He will never leave or forsake us.
what a glorious promise.
Even to the Roman Catholics who continue faithfully to hold on to the same faith we've known delivered to us from the apostles from the beginning.
JESUS CHRIST and HIM CRUCIFIED.
what else do we need?

David, I assume you love Michael Card and Fernando Ortega..
if you have been blessed by JMT, you have to really love those guys.
I have spent time on youtube for fun looking at other friends from our past like Don Francisco.
We didn't know him as well but he also had been instrumental in our lives especially while working with Navajo kids..
several were "saved" at a concert they came to when an invitation was given to commit their life to Christ..
my greatest joy has been to hear from one of the kids who'd been there that night and how today he is himself a worship leader working in mission and so wholeheaartedly sold out to Jesus..it all started when he was a fifteen year old living in our dorm at the Navjajo Mission Academy.
You have to know how rewarding it is to out of the clear blue get a phone call years later from someone who'd persevered in faith to find us, a phone number where he could reach us (it was a cell number at that!)
just to say "I want to thank you for what you did for me and for so many others then when you showed us the love of Jesus and helped us find real faith"...
there is no greater reward this world can offer.

I believe Vernon you shared a story with me once about that time in Arkansas and I think that you would probably love that place where JMT found his own in this present world while occupying space on planet earth.
I've not yet been there but am very much looking forward to a time spent with them in the near future helping however humbly with the restoration of their hermitage..
you are right, David, only today I found out it had burnt to the ground last February..a Methodist pastor who's a member of the brotherhood of the Little Portion shared that story with me..I am committed if able to help in some way to build it back to even greater worth..
we'd also gone through such a fire.
As I shared with them today, we emerged purged.
We'd been prepared by that fire to walk through something much greater we were forced to face when we lost a child..
I know in my heart it's only those who've learned to walk through such firey trials who will be able to lead anyone else through (with courage) who find themselves at the same place..
when there is no place left to run and the only way OUT is THROUGH.

I will also say this..that in many situations over the years we've been called on to sing communion songs. I write alot of our music, but for communion nearly every time we draw from the songs of John Michael Talbot because there are none we know of more meaningful that minister more to the hearers than his songs.
I'd have to say that in my life I've known few people who have expressed more of the beauty and grace of the Holy Spirit's living presence to me as a person (apart from Corrie Ten Boom and other saints who were forced into poverty and persecuted by this present world) than John Michael has to us.
He returned blessing for cursing, good for evil and has shown so much grace in every situation..
I never cease to be blessed whenever I am so privileged to sit at the feet of such a "master musician" and "humble brother" in Christ.
I count to this day it as one of my greatest of all privileges to have ever been so blessed as up close and personally as we were when John joined us for dinner one night, humbly played for us a few songs then got up to help me set the table ...I insisted that he continue playing his guitar and singing but he said, "oh no, you are not getting away with it.
The Lord says 'the greatest makes himself servant of all' "...then he smiled and winked..
he continued helping me set that table then cleared it off and to the very end of the evening was out there washing dishes alongside of us ..
that leaves an incredible impression on a soul ..especially most likely one of those women who'd have a tendency (as I have in life) to think more like Martha and less like Mary..
anyway, I have seen up close a man who is one of the greatest of all musicians I've personally met in my life who is also a humble servant of God who takes very seriously that role of "humility" to the same extent Jesus had when He washed the feet of a reluctant Peter who'd have had it his own way..
I am grateful such men still live among us to show us the WAY of Christ.
Brotherhood. Simple humility, an absense of self and true purity of heart in a childlike spirit of genuine faith.
If only we can all maintain that simplicity then maybe we, as the old Shaker hymn got it right, will learn what it means to be REALLY FREE.

Actually, Bob..I've spent many hours discussing with JMT (via email and personal visits) what he believes it takes for a person to "be saved" and must here burst the proverbial bubble so many "protestants" believe about Catholics..
you are right that there is a stero type but then again, you are wrong about John in that he does not embrace everything that traditionally many within the RCC have any more than every Presbyterian or Protestant in the world embraces the teaching of Louisville leaders..
or every American agrees with the present administration..etc.
It may be, actually, David you have reminded me of something that has been pressing on my own heart for years.
We, too, were very influenced by the music of Keith Green, the Talbot brothers, so many other up and rising Christian "stars" when we met the Greens way back before Keith was known by many others than a handful of us who'd heard him sing one place or another.
Melody, Keith's wife, and I were both pregnant at the time, she with her first child (Josiah) and I with my second, Rachel.
We spent hours talking about stuff moms talk about..then continued our communication over a couple of years. When David and I moved to Mexico to build an orphanage we stayed along the way with Keith and Melody and they were very supportive while we were down there building..we'd take our
times of rest up there with them.
When they moved to Texas Mel called to ask me if I thought my husband would be willing to build some buildings to house their recording studio and publishing house.
Keith called later that night to ask David if he'd be willing to commit a couple of years to the project, which we did.
Quite unfortunately it was Keith's bitterness toward John Michael and his absoulute rejection of his decision to return to the RCC that drove a wedge between them and us because we refused to stop listening to John's music or to believe he is a "heretic" for having followed the call of the Lord back into that church...any more than we will ever believe you, our good pastors Ed Henegar and Allan Poole or any of the beloved brothers and sisters we know within the PCUSA are "heretics" or "apostate" because of the way chosen by the heirarchy of the PCUSA and their ungodly behavior or choices when it comes to teaching doctrines of demons in their churches.
I do hope you realize that all along I've not had an argument with you concerning the good fight of faith you are willing to fight in an effort to steer the church at large back onto the right course.
Thankfully in the end a mission had been accomplished as I refused to back down or bow down to the will of man in that situation..
Keith and I came out of it all as dear friends respecting each other for having stood our ground..and John Michael Talbot at some point ended up singing at a Keith Green Memorial Concert as he'd been invited by Melody to be part of it..
since then, our good friend Barry McGuire (who had once taught our children in Sunday School while we attended the Agape Force meetings on Sundays) joined with John Michael and Terry for reunion concerts..
I don't agree with everything that JMT might have embraced as a member of the RCC but this I can tell you..his faith in the Lord, the fruit of the Spirit that has been clearly manifested to us throughout the years as we've known him not only as a musician but up close and personally to some extent is for real..
he is genuine.
His faith is seen through the good works that he has done in way of true purity and his honest effort to maintain the unity of the spirit until we all come into a unity of doctrine.
He has never compromised concerning "sins of the flesh" but for sure he has laid down his sword whenever it comes to fighting against another brother within the Lord's Household of Faith concerning doctrines and traditions of men.
I think in all honesty that is what we should all be striving for personally within ourselves.
Our battle isn't against flesh and blood but rather principalities and powers that aren't seen by us with human eyes.
we need real discernment so we can recognize what is behind outward appearances, words, political agendas, etc.

Well!

   A person thinks Charismatics are too legalistic and joins the RCC? Wait til he finds what he has to believe there to be saved.

Bob

Vernon--

We finally made it to Eureka Springs about 10 years ago. All those years in Texas, and we didn't go spend some time in Arkansas until we lived in North Carolina!

Anyway, a friend of mine from Austin Seminary was called to the church in Eureka Springs in the mid 80s. Don't know how strong the church is, but I checked PCUSA website and saw there's still a PCUSA congregation there.

But, I appreciate the vote of confidence re.: New Church Development!

:-)

In Christ's Peace & Hope,
David

David, I know this conversation is really about the people, not the place, but I had to locate Little Portion Hermitage in ARKANSAS. How close we have been so many times.

It is located in one of the places the comedian had in mind when he said: "We lived so far out in the country we had to go back toward town to hunt."

Had I ever chosen to return to Arkansas it would have been close to there, probably a little bit to the west. It is the favorite geography for a number of Christian personalities and other chapels and encampments. Towering over the festive little collection of ex-hippies who operate the arts and crafts industry in Eureka Springs is a statue of Christ that must be 100 feet tall or so. When we would take the children to see their grandparents we often drove within 10 or 15 miles of the Hermitage... but I wasn't aware it was there.

They probably need a good Presbyterian Church there David. This could be your opportunity to be a church planter. :-)

Karen,

Now that brings back some old memories! The Lord touched me, and many others, in our college student fellowship at A&M Presbyterian in Texas thru John Michael Talbot's ministry. I would say that he, and Keith Green, had a profound influence on me and on my fervor for evangelism and missions. Actually, I should re-phrase that and say that they supplemented the great seeds planted by so many laborers in the vineyard for Christ, PCUSA missionaries from far-flung points of the globe whom I was privileged to hear as a child growing up in a Pastor's home (we often provided "room and board" in our home for them).

Anyway, I suppose that the blessing which John Talbot(I should add his brother, Terry, to the mix!) and Keith Green brought to me was a way for me and my generation to "own" a style of evangelism and missions. Also, my own interest in playing guitar was revived by the Talbots.

I agree totally that there was a certain kind of legalism in the charismatic renewal of that day and age which was very troubling. It DID surprise me, though, when I was blessed to go with some friends to a JMT concert in the summer of '79 and (SUPRISE), JMT in the robe of a Franciscan! Yet, the Lord continued to bless me by his ministry thru the years.

In fact, I read a few weeks ago that the Little Portion Hermitage Chapel had burned to the ground. Over the years, I have contemplated (pun intended!) signing up for a retreat at Little Portion there in the Ozarks or NW Arkansas.

I could go on and on about the blessing which the Lord brought to me through the Agape Force in college, as well. Will need to save that for another day!

:-)

In Christ's Peace & Hope,
David

I must tell you, David..
one of my nearest and dearest of friends and mentors, John Michael Talbot, ended up back with the Roman Catholics..
after deciding legalism within the Protestant (especially Charismatic) Church was too hard to deal with humanly..
I keep thinking, praying, wondering myself why it is or how it is we
hold onto any tradition or doctrine within a church called by Jesus' Name that would prevent us?
I don't know. for sure I just don't know.
Trusting you might do better than I have here to convince anyone at all
of what matters most of all in the end.
For sure, this battle is bigger than either of us.
PEACE.

David..
you constantly bring up these stories about people who've most influenced me in my own life..like Ralph Winter or Millard Fuller.
they were both mentors to us.
My heart breaks for all who've lost a faithful friend in this world.
At the same time?
how can I do anything but REJOICE with him? he's singing with angels right now and soaring with them..
we are caught between Heaven and hell, are we not?
on a planet still waiting for Jesus to return to free us?
thank you David for reminding me that this faihful servant, Ralph Winter,
helped us to persevere in faith up to this very last hour ..
or whatever it is we are living through.
I am not your enemy..
God help you to know that at least is the truth.