what does baggage mean?
that a Catholic priest attempted to sexually molest me when I went to him believing that confessing my sin of fornication should be forgiven?
that a "Lutheran minister" read to me a poem to mock Mary as the Virgin Mother and mock the birth of Jesus Christ as being a child of fornication?
maybe you are right, Gene E..to identify this as "baggage"
I was very confused and from my heart with all my heart only searching for truth and reality in a world that quite obviously is anything but..
sometimes I feel like I need to return to square one and start all over again..
My mother, who I had gone back to help because my father had threatened to take away all of my siblings if I didn't returned to the Catholic Church.
She told me while I was sitting beside her in church "you are not allowed to receive communion until you return to the Catholic Church"
Not that I was even going to..but you know what?
that was unbelievable to me.
I told my mother, "If I'm not welcome, then this is NOT MY FATHER's TABLE"
yes, you have hit a raw nerve here, Gene E. for me and I do hope and pray I might do the same for you.
Jesus is coming soon for HIS OWN.
there's nothing in this world worth holding onto other than HIM.
when I say "I love you" I mean it from my heart.
and maybe baggage in your own life could keep you from believing it.
I do understand.

And I do appreciate that coming from you, Gene E.
Let me assure you that at no time have I ever been "homophobic" and to be truthful I have found my kid's homosexual friends (as well as my own)
to be among the kindest and nicest of people so obviously you realize that "baggage" has for me the same meaning it might for you.
Otherwise, there is one thing I do know and that is that no child of mine would ever be turned away from my table unless he became so obnoxious and blatently offensive that we could no longer tolerate him.
My heart is really broken over this maybe more than ever my heart has been in this world.
I don't think I've fully communicated here the "cost" for me personally when I dared to stand my ground in the face of a man who was raging and accusing John Michael Talbot and calling me a "witch" for refusing to back down when I dared to defend him.
You are right, Gene E. that the confusion in the church is hurting so, so many people. Our brother, Harlan Popov, is so right.
God knows how to save HIS OWN..
it's not in my hands.
I will do my best simply to "choose mercy" in every situation.
To "do justice and love mercy and walk humbly with my God"
I am very disappointed in what a man who has been to me someone I have for so long trusted as a true brother would so betray any of his friends.
I'd expect him to stand his ground here, and I pray he will in the end.

Edited by author 06-04-2009 11:19 AM
Karen...I don't know how you will receive this. At best I'll even grant it is a compliment with stings. You have a LOT of baggage and issues. I don't even particularily like you. You know that, and I mention it only as a preface to the next sentence, for dishonest or sugarcoated compliments mean very little; you are a Christian and a woman who loves God, and for all my complaints about you, I cannot conceive that you would approach something as solumn and holy as Communion with anything less than preparation and sincere love of God.

They say a compliment from someone who does not like you means more than one from a friend. Whatever your opinions on that, I will say here for all to read that the group of believers who will be taking communion at this place and time, persons who love you enough to invite you (and ask you to work no less, yet..well...you have a right to be offended, I will leave it at that) but then say you cannot join them in communion, will only have offended God by keeping one his daughters from doing what she is called to do 'in rememberance of me'. God has not lost anything in it,for God is omnipotent and knows you love Him. And you, aside from being justifiably insulted and hurt, will be no farther from God for not being allowed to partake, but they who have denied you this communion will in contrast have treated you unjustly...and they will also be the poorer for not have you joining with them. Truly, I mean that.

Dont take it the wrong way...I feel about you the way I do, and I am not saying otherwise, but once again, let it be known to any and all who read here that I know you love and serve God, and as for anyone who says that you cannot join them in communion? It is their loss in not having you, who love God deeply, join them in the experience. NOT yours.

I will only say, in their defense, if one can call it that, that they are following the (mistaken) teachings of their denomination. Sad excuse it is...but, such is the case. That you honestly did not realize that before, is...unfourtionate.

Take it in the spirit it is written in Karen, for I mean it well, and as a compliment.

this was not the case, by the way, for what happened with our friend JMT.
We received a letter from him asking that we send money to help build back a monastary that burnt down..
so ok, I will go on...this is why I got so "bent out of shape" over it..
we are also invited to join them at their monastary and even given a priviledged place of being invited to prayer and worship with them..
but at the very end of it all we are told, "while we recognize our Prostant brethren as Christians and believe we are to worship in "unity" for now none but confirmed Roman Catholics are invited to celebrate the eucharist with us"
this is for me not only a shock but an insult.
I should go there to "serve" by working my butt off however they need me to "help" to rebuild the physical buildings where they are worshipping and inviting others to the Lord's TABLE but at the same time be refused a place because I do not believe their doctrine is sound?
I'm honestly torn because in a way it's safer for them to know that at least whoever is receiving communion takes the act seriously as sacred..
on the other hand?
there is balance for sure. Unrepentant sinners are going to receive communion week after week (some even administering it as we realize the number of priests who've been involved in blatently sexually abusing children entrusted to their care)
whatever the case..I feel very grieved that John Michael would go along with this, especially when it is because I refused to bow down to Keith Green calling him a heretic that brought down on my head such wrath from a "Reformer"

Just a thought here, Vernon..
but I was picturing what it would be like in my own home if a stranger were to show up at the door, I invite him in and he takes over my table while shutting out my own children.
Let's say the guy (or gal) shows up at a wedding for one of your own children..they say they are an "invited guest" when in reality they are in shorts and a t shirt ...
whoever is standing at the door where the reception is being held shows mercy to the guy..he comes in and starts drinking all of the wine and shoving food meant for the guests into a duffle bag to carry it away for his own "party" down the road..
what would YOU DO?

Vernon..
why am I so "bent out of shape" over the false teaching of my Roman Catholic brothers, sisters, family and friends?
funny you should ask it that way..
whenever folks are attempting to push us into a mold that is anything but that of the IMAGE of our TRUE LIVING CHRIST and claiming they have a right and are given authority from Heaven to do so..
we get "bent out of shape"..don't you think?
so now ..big question here for you.
What is being IN SHAPE?

Bob..again let me just affirm to you that I believe it's from our hearts and what motivates us that the Lord cares most about.
It is important for there to be "order" in any House of the Lord as it is in a family ...children (or new converts) were expected to submit to the teachings of the elders who were ordained and there were clear instructions given as to how those who wanted to serve were to live their lives before the world..
as "husband of ONE WIFE" etc.
They were the example to the church of what JESUS HIMSELF looks like in character.
Right now in the Presbyterian Church where we attend the teaching pastor is presenting a series on marriage as God has ordained marriage (between one man and one woman) from the beginning of time (Genesis) and how the CHURCH is to be a picture to the world of the HOLY BRIDE our Lord Jesus is coming for..faithful, pure, committed to HIM in spirit and in truth.
This is not a PCUSA church but the same teaching has been given by the PCUSA pastors we sat under for many years who were both godly men and held to the truth of scripture as being our only guide when it comes to what it is the LORD CALLS GOOD.
I am most certain that there are many true believers and ministers who are yet within each denomination called by Jesus' Name who are grieved and hurt over all of the divisions and confusion brought about through proud, arrogant, unrepentant men and women who think it not only their "right" but "responsibility" to ursurp God ordained authority while exalting false doctrines, teachings and self made gods (or images called by HIS NAME) in place of our LIVING LORD and CHRIST.
His OWN recognize HIM in the least of our brethren..His OWN recognize HIS VOICE and will never follow another.
I think we can safely hold onto that if nothing else and hopefully agree to disagree on the least important of issues right now..
"why strain at gnats while swallowing camels"
Communion is an important issue and indeed I'd hope we might maintain the unity of the spirit by loving one another until we can all come into the unity of doctrine..
it is going to be my honest effort to continue discussing with my closest family and friends who are Roman Catholic this concern and hopefully if nothing else provoke thought so they might themselves look to Scripture and to the very Lord who they profess to believe for the answer.
Unless they can hear HIS VOICE they can't know any more than any of us can WHO is telling the TRUTH or WHO IS LYING.

for the record, Vernon..
It doesn't mean I think all Catholics are heretics any more than I believe all members in the PCUSA are heretics because of the false teachings, lies, confusion or whatever is being heaped on their heads ..
I do hope and pray their eyes be opened to TRUTH and ears be opened to the VOICE Of the HOLY SPIRIT who will always "rebuke and chasten" HIS OWN for the sake of US ALL who HE LOVES...

Vernon..
I understand why it's important for any church where communion is celebrated in Jesus' Name to be sure those who are receiving the Body and Blood of Christ (which is, as Bob said, if not physically spiritually His Body and Blood we are confessing and claiming to be partaking of in true faith)..anyway, it's an argument that I'm sure has been abused by many more than only Roman Catholics and might be why it's important also to "know one another" in truth.
When we begin to take so casually what we've been taught, confession of sin is a very big part of what the apostles have taught from the earliest foundations of the Church, and we just glibly receive such a gift as Christ's broken Body and Blood having been shed for us without doing so by truly believing and remembering what it is HE has done to save us..
then I agree it is a good thing to stop a stranger and to question whether or not he knows what it is he is doing.
It should be the responsibility of one who is coming to the table to let others know ahead of time what it is we believe in our hearts concerning the Sacrificial act of Jesus Christ we are "remembering" as we do so to honor HIM in this world openly through our faith.
It may be the reason earliest believers (mostly Jewish at the time) and the believers in Rome were coming together to break bread and drink from a common cup in rememberance of Jesus (often at the same time they were having love feasts and sharing meals together) was that most important way they were confirming their own faith while studying together from God's Word, listening to the teaching of those who had been especially gifted and called to rightly divide the Word of Truth for the sake of the whole body as all members were feeding together on CHRIST HIMSELF..
He is our LIVING HEAD in HEAVEN..
every member, joint and part is supplied by HIM just like our own bodies are here on earth fed through the blood that courses through our veins, pumped by the heart, directed by the brain!
without that nourishment a part will die. Without being rightly connected to the Head and to each other a part ends up without life and is cut off or falls off.
In that sense, the Catholics have it right concerning the importance of feeding on Christ Himself and communion should be for us a sacred act to express our faith as we are constantly "confirming" to each other and to the world around us we are members of the HOLY CHURCH called by the NAME of our HOLY LORD.
It's when we leave out the "HOLY SPIRIT" the church on earth ends up being nothing but another "dead body" ..
Remember what Paul warned about those who were sick and dying for not taking seriously such an "act" as they ran to a table without rightly discerning the Body of Christ..
there were many things Paul and the apostles taught about why it was they did as they did, why we do yet.."lay hands quickly on no man" ..did that mean that the laying on of hands whether it be for the purpose of anointing another with oil to bring healing should be considered a sacred act and that one should be sure before laying on hands that a man has repented from sin?
or was it to do with a minister who was anointed and ordained to teach, evangelize, go out as a missionary into the world with the blessing of
his fellow disciples and apostles?
whatever the case, obviously one thing is certain..in this world much of what we have held sacred has now been subjected to the profane and many who are naming Jesus as "Lord" are blaspheming His Name unless from their hearts they truly are willing to be obedient to His commands.
"DO NOT TAKE HIS NAME in VAIN" is one of the first commandments we've been given. Jesus said it like this..
"Why do you call me Lord, Lord and not DO the things I command?"
He came to fulfill, never to destroy the LAW of our Father in Heaven.
HE also calls what our Father calls GOOD for what it is..and He recognized the evil one and what it is he is out to accomplish as the enemy of the SAME LIVING LORD.

Bob,
I received a very "nice" letter from someone at the community that explained to me why it is Catholics do not invite Protestants to receive "the eucharist"
I responded, you can be sure.
While I do understand that he is correct concerning a person understand what they "mean" and "why" such an emphasis is placed on communion I also disagreed saying that there is no place is scripture this teaching is supported.
I will though say that I think the way we celebrate communion in most Reformed churches is somewhat carried over from the Roman Catholic Church, I don't really want to argue the point.
It is still my earnest belief that originally when the first communion was ever given by Jesus Himself to His apostles it was "Passover"
The Jews had celebrated Passover and still do as one of their highest and most holy days and the meaning behind Passover is not only a "looking back" to deliverance from Egypt but was a looking forward to the coming Messiah, deliverance from SIN and the time Isaiah and the prophets speak of as "entering into the Promised Land" (Heaven and Earth become ONE)
Jesus said very clearly "when you do this do this in rememberance of me" as He was passing the bread and the cup.
Messianic Jews understand the meaning of this better than either Rome or the Reformed have as they continue celebrating Passover from year to year and do so "in rememberance of their Messiah Jesus (Hamashia Yeshua)
Every bit of the Passover is a picture of Jesus Christ..the slain lamb, every bit was eaten ... the broken bread, a part being wrapped carefully in a napkin (they have a name for that) and hidden until after they've finished eating the bread, dipping the sop, drinking from the cup.
At Passover it was one cup that was passed to each (symbolizing the unity of all being of one flesh, one blood as children of Abraham, Issac and Jacob) though this is done family by family and was throughout all of Israel as together they as a nation wherever they'd been scattered on earth at the same time go through the motions of Passover.
Unless they have come to know the Messiah, they don't really understand or do in His rememberance what Jews who have known Him from the first Church through today are doing (eyes wide, hearts listening)
There is still an empty seat at each table, the seat is for Elijah (not Jesus Himself) who it is believed must come to announce the coming of Messiah .. and, as Jesus said to His disciples, "Elijah had come but the Jews didn't recognize him" (John the Baptist)
Unfortunately, both Catholic and Protestant tradition leaves out this important element of "Passover" ..not that we should celebrate Jewish holy days in the same way they had for the same reason..
rather though that we understand the meaning behind any given tradition.
There are doctrines and traditions of men and there are doctrines and traditions ordained by God Himself.
The Catholics created doctrines and traditions that reflected pagan celebrations and Roman thought while rejecting most of what was taught to them by the apostle Paul and his true "disciples"
In the end, they formed a priesthood similar to the one Jesus taught His Own disciples they were not to imitate in this world. He is our ONLY HIGH PRIEST and HE IS IN HEAVEN..
I do think yet there is confusion among many Reformed Churches still that hold onto many of the traditions of Rome while rejecting the doctrine.
Isaiah wrote of the time when no man will teach another because "all know the Lord"
Ultimately that is an important truth for us to consider..when people truly know the Lord and are listening to the Voice of the Same Jesus through the Holy Spirit given freely to us all, we recognize His Voice and Truth no matter who it's coming through.
If we don't KNOW for ourselves then we can't KNOW if what another is telling us is a LIE or TRUTH.
I have never embraced the teaching of Rome when it came to their false doctrines..nor did I embrace the false prophecies of many within the Charismatic movement or false teachings (error) within Reformed Churches.
All of scripture is true and to get hold of part without taking time to look at the whole is why doctrines of men abound..there is pride on the part of men who refuse to recognize error no matter what church or age we are living in...and it's almost always "religious authority" that ends up persecuting and oppressing whoever dares to challenge a belief that is not lining up with "all" of scripture as it's been given to us.
This is why I think Paul said we were to maintain the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace until we all come into "unity of doctrine"
I'm sure many more Roman Catholics who have studied God's Word and know Jesus for real, as they witness true brothers and sisters in Christ being turned away from the Lord's Table will begin questioning themselves and what it is they've believed.
Such teachings as saints being exalted to a position only the Holy Spirit is to hold or a pope (or any human) into the position Jesus Christ Alone clearly taught was HIS ALONE in HEAVEN (no man was to rule over or be exalted over another in this present world, all are equally BROTHERS)
In less than a century the organized "traditional" church looked far too much like "the world"
This is why we need to be looking more and more at the persecuted church, the Church that is emerging from their places of hiding throughout every nation where persecution and poverty has prevented them from being seen and heard by the Universal Church.
As Harlan rightly told me years ago, persecution has a way of purging out everything that is false ..the fire that refines and purifies His Church.
The first thing to "go" is "false brethren" ..the systems of men crumble regardless of what they are called, false doctrines are meaningless to brothers who are living together holding on in faith to Jesus and to each other learning what the real LOVE of our HOLY LORD is all about.
sins like pride, lust, anything of this world we have a tendency to hold onto are purged out by the fire God Himself uses to chasten His Own.
We who are "lukewarm" (a mix of doctrines of men and TRUTH) need to buy that gold tried by fire (the faith of the martyrs) and listen, learn what it is we ourselves need to stand and be strong (courageous) in such a time as this.

Karen,

    Thank you for apologizing.
  
    In the past two posts I described the Romanist's doctrines and traditions as unbiblical. I can say that with confidence because I can find no justification in the scriptures for them. In fact, many are in direct contradiction to what the bible says.

    Persons from non-Reformed backgrounds have difficulty in this area. We have traditionally placed a strong emphasis on a doctrinal beliefs drawn from the scriptures. This of course requires an educated clergy and laity. Thus we have always encouraged education to our young. It is no accident that per capita the Reformed have the highest literary rate, more college graduates, more business owners and are the wealthiest of all the denominations.

    But, education starting with the young was not encouraged for the above purposes. It was so they could read and understand the scriptures. Even those who could not read were taught through the catechisms. Only a thorough knowledge of the scriptures and a proper use of interpretation could lead one out of the heresies of the past, present and future. I know why I am not Roman Catholic as well as why I am Protestant because of attention to them.

    Today, relativism has fairly well destroyed such an idea. What one would like the scriptures to say trumps what it does indeed say.

    Do you really think you can enlist present Catholic church members to protest Rome's exclusion of Protestants? Did you not read what I wrote earlier? For Rome to change a doctrine would be to admit error. If they have one error then taht would leave them open to accusations of other errors. Chances are these people are already aware of of the exclusivist principles and don't really care or know with certainty that it can never change for the reasons I have mentioned. Some just like the smells and bells regardless of what goes on.

Gene E. and Vernon,

    I don't knwo of any Reformed denominations that exclude anyone from the table. The "verbiage" from Corinthians is standard no matter what Reformed denomination you worship in. I speak from experience having worshipped in a few different Dutch as well as Swiss, German and French Reformed churches. Outside of those prohibited due to public sin I know of no incident where a person was denied use of the Lord's Table. That the TE makes the declaration as to who is eligible has always seemed to me most proper, guarding the table while at the same time making it available to all without denominational distinction.

    As to the emphasis. Only today. In the past, Elders made it a point to visit members to remind them to prepare themselves for the Lord's Table, even passing out tokens that were presented to ensure that one was not being excluded due to unrepentent sin. I think it served more as a reminder to the member of the soberness of the occasion. Why? Because we believe that we truly feed and drink Christ, albeit spiritually and not corporally as do the Lutherans and Romanists. We have never held to the Zwinglian idea of a mere anamnesiac service. The Bread of Heaven. Isn't that how its described?

     I don't know why someone should get upset jsut because some club has rules you disagree with. It IS their club after all? Just go find one you agree with. Its a good thing the civil courts don't get involved in liturgical and doctrinal squabbles. Half the country woul dbe employed daily as judges and juries.


   I just realized that in listing the various Reformed denominations abouve I left out Presbyterians!


Bob

Hello all.

Vernon, your right about some protestants being foolish about closing the table. It's kind of sad. That said, most protestants don't put nearly the emphasis on communuion as Catholics do...and I have never heard of a mainline that did.

While I have also heard of closed, and closed closed, tables among Baptists, the closed nature of Catholic communion is...well, it is a BASIC point of their communion. A Baptist church with a closed, closed communion would not deny the validity of another Baptist churches communion. If your Catholic, you see validity in only Catholic communion (maybe...maybe Orthodox).

Karen, I don't mean this meanly...truly, I don't, but I have never heard of a Roman Catholic church that would welcome ANYONE to communion who was not RC. That just ins't news. If they did, they were breaking the rules. That said, I am sad that your friend sent you that message. I can tell you that it hurt...and, you were right to be hurt. I am sorry to see that.

Karen, you swing from totally supportive to totally disapproving over issues.

How many protestant churches in your area would point out to you that unless you become a member of their church, you would not be welcome at their table?

That was one of the issues used to get Southern Baptists all riled up in the 1970s in their march to "conservative control". I have no idea what they are doing today, but in my era Baptists came in three grades: Open Communion which would be like what many Presbyterian churches do today. "Closed Communion" indicated that you needed to be a SOUTHERN Baptist to participate... American Baptists, Independent Missionary Baptists, GARB, and other unwelcome. "Close, Close Communion" was a practice where ONLY active members of the particular congregation observing communion could participate.

So when you look at the chaos in Protestant circles, I'm not sure I understand why you are so "bent out of shape" this morning about Catholic practice.

One of the issues that seems to upset the Presbyterians that you are a bit more comfortable with.... would be churches (congregations?) like mine that include in the verbiage of the Communion service: "This is NOT a Presbyterian Table. Our Savior invites those who trust in Him." I get the idea a lot of Presbyterians would prefer that we be a bit more demanding in "fencing the table".

So it looks to me that a lot of us have some of this same trait that JMT has been asked to transmit.

on the other hand?
this is great amunition isn't it?
when battling back all forces of evil that remain within the Roman Catholic Church so that our true brothers and sisters might be freed from all those lies?
I hope what I just sent for you all to read for yourselves might prove equally relevant as you are fighting back forces of evil within the PCUSA most of you believed could never have happened under "your watch" ..or the watch of any other faithful pastor, elder, etc..
is it any wonder the Lord Himself while admonising the Laodoceans said,
"I'd rather you be found hot or cold but because you are lukewarm I am spewing you out of My Mouth. ???"
I will be letting all of my Catholic friends know that I am not "welcome" to receive communion simply because I am "Protestant"
we'll see what will happen.
Maybe I will be accused of "dividing" their church, right?
"heresy"
oh, I don't KNOW..but who cares?
if we do what we KNOW is RIGHT, isn't that what always matters most?
thanks, Bob, for reminding me..I hope maybe you can appreciate my heart also in these matters.
I do though publicly here APOLOGIZE for having misled or confused anyone at all OTHERWISE..
marantha, ya'll!!!

Bob, I must ask your forgiveness.
I WAS WRONG.
hopefully you can smile and not gloat but I want to let you know that right after you'd "reproved" me I received a note from John Michael Talbot soliciting funds and asking for volunteers to come help them rebuild their hermitage.
John wrote that "all are welcome" whether Protestant or Roman Catholic to join in the daily community life as they share it together as Franciscan brothers and sisters.
We are welcome to send money, volunteer our labor, etc. etc. but at the very end of that email he said, "we've been asked not to include Protestants while celebrating the eucharist"
how sad is this?
the new pope is moving backwards here..
dismantling Vatican II ..
I do trust that folks like JMT will eventually rise up to fight such travesty and to bring to LIGHT what most needs to be in this age of darkness and overwhelming confusion.
My trust is in the Lord.
I do so hope John Michael's has been also and that never would he allow
property, polity and/or privileged position within any "church" take precedence over what matters most..
PURITY of HEART, PURITY of DOCTRINE, PURITY OF LIFE.
without PURITY there is NO Unity or PEACE..not for real anyway.
whitewash can never compare to REAL RESTORATION..
are we ever learning this lesson?
My husband is restoring the Colonial INN in downtown historic Hillsborough and every day telling me stories about the layers of "whitewash" that had been used to "cover up" a huge, rotting mess otherwise.
The current "owner" has basically been bearing not only the blame but
accusations from a town wanting this work to be done at his expense while
also fining him thousands of dollars for what the previous owners failed
to keep up in way of an agreement to preserve a historic site..
anyway..it gets too crazy to think about let alone talk about.
We all can only do what we can moment by moment, step by step, and trust from our hearts as we PRAY from our hearts..
JESUS is BIGGER than THIS!